How Will The Ignition Recall Affect GM Sales?

"Tom McParland" (tommcparland) 03/14/2014 at 10:01 • Filed to: Recalls, GM, Cobalt, Ignition, Articles

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I have conversations with car-buyers on a daily basis, in fact, I often will talk about the auto industry with people who are not even in the market. Most of the conversations revolve around a cool car that is about to come out or a vehicle that they are considering for purchase. But recently I have been getting questions like these: "What is up with that ignition recall?" "Is it true people have died?" "Did they (GM) know about it? "Are Chevy cars unsafe?" Brand perception among car-buyers is an incredibly powerful factor on whether or not they will purchase. And nothing can ruin a brand's credibility more than the perception that an automaker is unsafe.

While I will tell people that the current Chevy lineup is just as safe as other vehicles in the same segment, once that seed is planted it is very difficult to stop it from growing. A brand that is perceived to be unsafe can have a drastic impact on sales. The unintended acceleration issue with Audi in the 80's almost crippled the automaker in the US. It took Audi a long time to recover, and ghosts from that area still haunt them. It is also hard for car buyers to separate an incident involving specific models from them generalizing about the overall integrity of a brand's offerings. When Ford recently had a string of recalls related to engine fires, it cast doubts in the minds of shoppers on Ford's quality control for other vehicles. Ford has taken steps to remedy their issues and sales are on a rebound.

Now the interesting thing about brand perception is the juxtaposition between the desirability of specific vehicles and the perception of their quality/safety. Take for example the Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, Consumer Reports ranked it the lowest scoring car on sale giving it a 20 out of 100, yet it is one of Jeep's top sellers. Say what you will about CR's recommendations, the fact is they are perceived as an objective evaluator of vehicles and they are the most referenced source of information for the vast majority of car-buyers. So what does this have to do with GM? Folks that want Silverardos and Corvettes are unlikely to be swayed by this ignition scandal, because those vehicles have such a strong following. However, cars like the Cruze, Malibu, and Traverse that are competing in very crowded and hyper competitive segments are in for a more difficult battle. When car-buyers come to me about vehicles in popular segments like compact sedans, mid-sizers, and crossovers, rarely will someone ask, "What do you think about the Malibu/Cruze/Traverse?" The majority of shoppers have a tendency to default towards imports, again due to the perception of superior quality. While It is difficult to quantify how a recall or safety issue affects long term sales of a given brand, when a buyer goes from ambivalence to active avoidance that is bad for business.

It is also true that most car buyers have short memories, the Toyota unintended acceleration debacle in 2010 seems like ages ago. At the time Toyota was criticized for not acting "fast enough" but the automaker did seem to make a good faith effort to rectify the situation and reassure buyers of their commitment to making reliable and safe vehicles. What I found most fascinating about the Toyota case is that when the investigations were complete-

"The DOT concluded that, other than a number of incidents caused by accelerators hanging up on incorrectly fitted floor mats, the accidents were caused by drivers depressing their accelerators when they intended to apply their brakes. 'Pedal misapplication' was the DOT's delicate terminology for this phenomenon."

In the end Toyota was not really at-fault with the unintended acceleration case, but they still continued to back their consumers and didn't really mention that is was "bad driving" and not "bad engineering" on Toyota's part. Toyota knew the sooner the story went away the faster they could recover. As to the GM ignition recall, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! This combined with the fact that GM might be immune to civil lawsuits due to a taxpayer backed managed bankruptcy during the time when the vehicles in question were being produced, can create a perfect storm for consumer backlash. The longer GM stalls and points fingers in other directions the longer this narrative will be in the minds of potential car buyers. Consumers can forgive an automaker for having a "bad run" of products for a number of years, just look at Audi's comeback, but car buyers don't easily forget active negligence that cost people's lives.

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!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! is a professional car buying consultant, lover of all things automotive and a bit wagon obsessed. You can find more ramblings and plenty of carporn !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

505Turbeaux > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:06

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I think Audi was the biggest victim of the brand perception slam. I believe there are still ongoing lawsuits over lost value on Audi 5000's. As of 2010 a class action was still open and contested in IL court.

mazdaspeed2 > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:19

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It amazes me how much brand perception effects a buyer's decision. Almost every one that I have talked to (that isn't a jalop) will not buy from Manufacturer A because they had a car they made 20 years ago and they didn't like it. I think it will have a big effect because of this on the cars like the Malibu and Traverse, but like you said, it probably won't do anything to the Silverado and Corvette sales.

Victorious Secret > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:29

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Outside of enthusiast circles?

Nope.

We need to realize that we mean jack all outside of our loud mouthed protests. As sad as it is to say, this won't have any substantial drawbacks.

Ask Toyota how their sales were after their whole fiasco. I think they would say they were still in great shape.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:31

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People are sheep, and will generally believe anything told to them by their favorite propaganda outlet.

Why just yesterday I heard that Pangea was going to reunite for one last tour.

zeontestpilot > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:32

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I know for me, in light of the severity of the issue and the time frame for when the issue was original discovered and when the recall was issued, I'm not planning on buying a GM vehicle anytime soon. I feel that GM could of discreetly fixed the issue the next model year but they didn't, which makes me lose trust in their concern for the safety of their customers. Especially since most of the affected models are the cheaper, commuter cars that I can afford to purchase. My main concern is this though, it took 10+ years for GM to issue a recall, but only because (correct me if I'm wrong) a lawsuit where the issue was brought up. It makes me wonder, are there other issues that haven't been discovered yet?

dogisbadob > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:36

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GM should bail them out and give every Cobalt owner a new Civic or Focus.

macanamera > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:36

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Like this:

StevenG > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:38

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Why would you tell people it was just as safe?
This is a company that ignored a problem for 10 years. That is not the kind of culture that should be involved in building cars.

MooseKnuckles > mazdaspeed2 03/14/2014 at 10:40

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I hate my 2007 Mazda6S, but I wouldn't really hesitate to buy a new 3 or 6, they look fantastic. My friend had a 1993 Mustang V6, and got rid of it about a year ago, he will never buy Ford, actually never domestic again because of it. 20 year old car that he treated like shit. lol

jlmounce > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:44

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This is going to hurt GM significantly. The more we start finding out about this, it looks really bad. The fact that GM knew about the issue for well over a decade. The fact that decisions to fix the problems fell on deaf ears of bean counters. That's the exact kind of "screw the little guy in the name of profits" action that pretty much everybody in this country hates these days.

To say it's a PR nightmare would be a gross understatement.

Now, this happened under the watch of "Old GM," and the "New GM" is arguably doing things better. That doesn't change the fact that it's happening now and so far "New GM" hasn't been entirely forthcoming on this issue.

I wouldn't want to be a stock holder in GM that has purchased recently. I'll leave it at that.

Seitz > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:45

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This is tough for a few reasons:

1. GM is a different company than it was 20 years ago, or even 10 when this problem occurred.

2. This problem is recent enough to make me wonder if this mistakes have been made since, especially because no repercussions over this problem have happened until 2014.

3. I actually like some of GMs cars lately,

4. I feel this particular problem, if it happened to me, I would more likely be able to handle than some of the people who experienced it. I am a more inept driver than average. I'm not saying I'm impeccable or perfect, but I would take my chances and say I would probably know what to do in the situation of an ignition shutoff. I would, however, not enjoy the constant fear that the ignition could shutoff. That would be annoying and scary.

todaytomorrowSD > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:45

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It's just what the media and anti-Detroit zealots (and now Obama haters) needed to try and finish GM off. And, Trust me, THEY WILL TRY. This latest 303 deaths SPECULATION (reported by many, again anti-GM, media as FACT) is exactly what will continue to happen.

The circus began before, and somewhat created, the bankruptcy. The amount of sloppy and essentially ABSURD "journalism" that took place during that time period was ridiculous. (There were "news" sites literally celebrating the countdown to the company's filing)

You'll see the same thing this time (although maybe not to the same degree if lying). America won't be happy until it destroys itself, history and wealth included.

TheCraigy > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:46

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The Ford Explorer never really recovered from the whole firestone debacle, but Ford sure did.

8trackback > StevenG 03/14/2014 at 10:46

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Because this issue did not impact all GM models. In the end GM will blame the source / manufacturer of the ignition switch that was more than likely not GM. You could make the same blanket statement for all automobile manufactures who didn't come forward with information including Toyota and Audi.

cazzyodo > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:48

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When you consider how quickly stereotypes come to mind in various situations you realize that perception is vastly important. Anyone who thinks otherwise is ignoring how much money, time and effort goes into marketing. The average consumer is biased and follows stereotypes.

Fact: stereotypes exist.

Stereotypes are bad because they generalize groups of people, places, things, nouns, whatever. Whether or not the stereotype can be considered good or bad is beside the point but they exist because at some point in time an observation or opinion was made and said opinion caught on.

Whether you are a hard working individual with the heritage of a stereotypical lazy group of people or an auto manufacturer trying to blaze a trail in safety after a decade of poor reviews it takes a lot of effort to combat stereotypes. As you said, once the seed is planted it grows.

And to keep up metaphors, landscaping can be a bitch.

DoctorNine > mazdaspeed2 03/14/2014 at 10:50

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One of the reasons that conversation on this site is different than most car sites, is that a great many people here like taking things apart and putting them back together again. So our perception about risk, is informed by the experience we have of assessing a defect and repairing it. If we like a vehicle, one or two defects won't stop us from buying it. We just buy the vehicle, then find a fix for that particular weakness. It's a different way of looking at the vehicle ownership experience.

Tom McParland > StevenG 03/14/2014 at 10:50

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There is no evidence to suggest that Chevy's current lineup has any significant safety issues.

mazdaspeed2 > MooseKnuckles 03/14/2014 at 10:52

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Haha that is exactly what I am talking about. My friend has been looking for cars with his dad (we are poor so we need parental assistance) and his aunt recently got a 15 year old civic and she doesn't like it so his dad doesn't like any civics now. The worst part is they won't listen to any logic or reason.

Rockchops > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:52

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I was going to get a Cadillac ELR, but I've heard GM's ignition switches will kill you. I guess I'm stuck with a prius then. Shame, because I had 30k more to waste. Hookers and blow in the prius!

gideonford > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:52

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It wont. We (Americans) are stupid. If problems with GM vehicles really caused sales issues the company wouldn't exist anymore. People still buy shit vehicles (from all auto makers) and they aren't going to stop buying shit vehicles anytime soon.

offroadkarter > TheCraigy 03/14/2014 at 10:52

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To this day, U-haul won't rent you a trailer if you have an explorer

But a mountaineer or an aviator are both acceptable

MN > mazdaspeed2 03/14/2014 at 10:52

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No disagreement with that, but......this isn't the same thing. Here we're dealing with a growing perception that people who still work at General Motors knew of a defect that could cause a fatal accident and did nothing about it. This is a difference between building a mediocre car...and knowing one of your cars has that serious a defect and for whatever reason doing nothing about it.

The first instance is bad engineering or manufacturing. The second is immoral. Personally, I can forgive 1970s Ford for the Pinto. I can't forgive 1970s Ford for not spending the $12 per car it would have taken to save those people who died in the fires.

Those designers and management are long gone. But some of the ones who did this at GM are still there, at least that's what NBC reported on March 13th. That...should be what concerns today's buyers.

Stradale > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:53

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Didn't the fake unintended acceleration from Toyota hurt their sales? I have to think this will hurt GM even more.

JR1 > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:54

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If the media covers it enough Chevy might have a problem this year. I would be surprised if the other GM products suffer. I know a lot of people that didn't even realize Chevy and GMC are the same company.

GoPDemon > 505Turbeaux 03/14/2014 at 10:54

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I feel to young to know this.

Tom McParland > Victorious Secret 03/14/2014 at 10:55

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My point was that Toyota recovered because how the handled the fiasco and the desirability of their vehicles outweighed the risk. GM is behind the 8-ball in those segments as it is, this will make that hole deeper.

Stradale > mazdaspeed2 03/14/2014 at 10:56

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I won't buy from GM again after I bought 2 of their cars brand new in the early 00's and they were money pits. It's not like vehicles are some cheap product that you don't mind wasting money on again. If you bought a car that was shit from Manufacturer A then bought a car that was worlds better from Manufacturer B, why would you ever go back to A?

Tom McParland > Stradale 03/14/2014 at 10:57

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It did, but not significantly.

MooseKnuckles > mazdaspeed2 03/14/2014 at 10:57

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Or the opposite, people who are getting out of a 10 year old car, or hell even just a 5 year old car, and go look at a new car, no matter what it is, they are amazed by all the features and electronics that their older car doesn't have so they buy the new one, no matter what it is, no cross-shopping or comparing.
I just don't understand how people can make such a large investment (even small purchases, like a phone) and not do any research. They listen to the salesman as if he is on your side and going to give you the truth in regards to the competition.

JPmospo > MooseKnuckles 03/14/2014 at 10:57

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It's funny cuz I've had 2 Mazdas and honestly I don't think I'd ever buy a Mazda ever again. Poor customer service and in the end I felt the cars never do deliver much more 'zoom' than say, an Accord V6 6MT (and I had a Speed6).

GoPDemon > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 10:57

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I think it is simple for normal cars... Why risk it with a GM car when I could be fine with another competitor?

Tom McParland > GoPDemon 03/14/2014 at 10:57

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exactly

JPmospo > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 11:00

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This is DEFINITELY that part they were talking about when they were asking if it was really ok to bail out GM.

And I was/am FOR the bailout.

erikgrad > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 11:01

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Toyota *might* have had some issues with pedal binding that the DOT did not have in its report (they did have to add shim kits on the pedal, and I know of a fastener company that was cranking out parts of a revised design during the recall phase, management there believed there was a real problem). Despite that, Toyota handled the crisis very well, and the raw statistics show that your chance of dying in a Toyota/Lexus model built in the mid 2000's is far less than that of other comparable models (Yaris is the exception).

By contrast, if you look back at the raw data on the Cobalt and other GM models, the information is much more alarming. For 2005-2008 models, three of the top seven 'deadliest' vehicles are Chevrolet models, Cobalt being fourth on the list. How many of those accidents were due to failed airbags, and of those, how many failed airbags were due to the ignition switch? We don't know yet definitively...but it looks bad.

Source for death rate data: http://www.iihs.org/externaldata/s…

Chatham Harrison dba SPANFELLER DELENDUS EST > mazdaspeed2 03/14/2014 at 11:02

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It's really sad. My mother was a reliable Mazda 626 buyer until the automatic transmission debacle. Now, she's shopping for a car and a new 6 is a perfect fit for her, but she won't pull the trigger because she got burned.

Having driven a Cobalt on a fairly regular basis (fiancee's car), every time you drive the car, the impression is "the engineers have finally started trying, but they aren't there yet." Peeling chrome on the door handles, a flickering radio display, a flimsy shift handle that let the button get jammed inside it. The power steering is firm, but vague (they did a recall on it once, along with one for the fuel pump.) There are so many little problems that demonstrate that GM hadn't bothered to make a good car in 25 years, and they were still learning the ropes. It will be really unfortunate if a car that was one of the first to demonstrate GM's renewed commitment to quality (or at least mediocrity) will be the one to perpetuate a bad reputation for them.

The Devil Drives a Mustang (Rotary Pending) > MooseKnuckles 03/14/2014 at 11:03

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I am pretty sure the 1993 Mustang was the last of the 3rd generation Fox bodies and was only available with either a 4-cylinder or a V8. Maybe it was a 1994?

Still, I do get your point.

Tom McParland > erikgrad 03/14/2014 at 11:03

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Excellent work with those figures.

MooseKnuckles > JPmospo 03/14/2014 at 11:03

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My Mazda6 is just a Ford Fusion with slightly different suspension and is a 5-door hatch 'coupe' which Ford didn't offer. Same shitty 3.0 Duratec engine except Mazda calls it the MZN I believe. And I'm not sure if Ford offered the 6spd Auto mine has as early as 2007. Having driven a 2006 Fusion that was AWD but converted to FWD due to owner not wanting the shill out the repair cost, the Mazda does feel more nimble and sharp, especially the front end.
Yours was a turbo AWD lowered Fusion essentially.
When I bought mine I was downgrading due to school from a tastefully upgraded CTS 3.6. For what I was looking for the Mazda was the best driving option in the midsize entry sedans. Looking back I should have bought an IS or something more fun (read: RWD. lol)

JinDenver > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 11:04

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::Generic R Kelly Joke::

::Drops Mic::

StevenG > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 11:04

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We do however have lots of evidence that they would cover it up if it did.

soloyosh > MooseKnuckles 03/14/2014 at 11:05

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'93 'Stangs had 2.3L 4 cylinders for their base engine didn't they? If memory serves, the V6 didn't appear until the horribly restyled '94s.

MooseKnuckles > The Devil Drives a Mustang (Rotary Pending) 03/14/2014 at 11:05

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yup definitely 94, the only thing he ever said 'good' about the car was that it was the first year of that body style as if it were some sort or prestigious achievement.

good correction!

Elmo > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 11:05

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If people are actually smart, they'll realize this was from an old model that isn't even produced anymore. But, this generation of people are stupid and only listen to what the TV media puts into their heads. It's just like how when the Chevy SS pace car caught on fire, there were so many retards out there who didn't know how to research before spouting off that it was a problem with the car itself when it wasn't.

TurboGoose > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 11:07

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Any large-scale blunder like this on behalf of an automaker resonates deeper and further into a consumer's mind nowadays; after all, it only takes one person (albeit with reasonable credentials) to go on Twitter and say "300 people died cause of this" and the whole world knows about it in a matter of minutes.

Like you said, the longer GM drags this on, the more damage it does to its image, one not exactly clean of past mismanagement. Some people are more forgiving than others and will reconsider, eventually; but even these people will lose interest and go shop for a car someplace else.

MooseKnuckles > soloyosh 03/14/2014 at 11:07

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yup was 94, someone else pointed that out, had the boat anchor.

HumanPersonNetwork > Stradale 03/14/2014 at 11:08

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Because you have a brain, and know that each machine is different, with different strengths and weaknesses? I know I'm making crazy assumptions about that first piece, but let's give you the benefit of the doubt.

EchtoGammut > Rockchops 03/14/2014 at 11:09

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Try 40-45K extra to waste (I had to double check Prius pricing, because for a second you made me wonder if you could configure a 40K version), but yes I was in the same boat. I decided to spend a couple extra grand and get a Tesla.

Tom McParland > StevenG 03/14/2014 at 11:13

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That is true...and that was the point I was trying to raise. Recalls are one thing, deliberate actions against consumer safety are another.

mazdaspeed2 > MN 03/14/2014 at 11:13

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That is an excellent point, I was just referring to the power of brand perception among non-jalops. This is obviously more serious and I would be hesitant to buy a GM vehicle knowing that they didn't fix a KNOWN problem and it cost hundreds of people their lives. I did not mean to make them sound like the same thing, I was just saying that people have been turned off to a manufacturer for MUCH less.

Tom McParland > Elmo 03/14/2014 at 11:15

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A recall on a model that is no longer produced is one thing. A company that was aware and failed to act putting lives in danger is not going to sit well with consumers.

DoctorNine > HumanPersonNetwork 03/14/2014 at 11:16

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Yeah, bad assumption. Reasoning power isn't his strong suit.

Stradale > HumanPersonNetwork 03/14/2014 at 11:16

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Ohhhh insults you clearly know how to have a grown up conversation.

mazdaspeed2 > Stradale 03/14/2014 at 11:18

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I personally don't like GM, and I am obviously partial to Mazda, but things are constantly changing, and it is not in your best interest to never consider a manufacturer's newer cars because of bad experiences with older cars. Your experience was more recent, so it obviously holds more weight, but if it was cars you bought from them in the early 90's than it wouldn't be smart to not consider them again.

Nate B > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 11:19

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As a current (not for long, though) Cobalt owner, I can easily say that I will never own a Chevy again. The quality of this car is absolute garbage. If they spent some R&D on their styling and reliability like they do the Corvette, they may have something going for them. Cobalts have been plagued with other recalls and issues as well. Chevy ruined me with this car.

DMCVegas > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 11:22

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I will not be buying another GM vehicle because of the Ignition Recall.

It's not simply a perception thing about this, but it's really the straw the broke the camel's back. We owned a Blazer that we loved, but then had cracking plastic seat handles that broke off. Fine. I was tolerant of things such as thermostats and radiator caps going out. Things happen, I know. But then there is also the DEX COOL lawsuits and the cooling system problems that plague certain engines such as the 3800 series, and cause leaks in other engine cooling systems. Then there's the constant failure of S-10 4x4 control modules, the high failure rate of Upper Balljoints on the 4x2's that have to be chiseled out to be replaced! It's just one damn thing after another with GM.

I get that Chrysler has quirks, and that Ford seems to insist upon cyclic engineering to go from horrible cars, to really good ones, and then back again. I can deal with all of this. I can forgive horrible experiences with service advisors and salesmen on any dealership lot that reflects the marque. But GM is just getting worse and worse. We're getting ready to buy another car here within the next week or so. I'd love to look at a diesel Cruze, or a Volt. But after all of this? No. As far as I'm concerned, it's over for me and GM. I honestly wouldn't feel comfortable buying another GM vehicle for at least another 10 or so years, if ever. If this simply is an issue of bad decisions, poor engineering, or even purely evil management, I want enough time for everything to come down the pipeline and get flushed out.

It's one thing to have a shitty car, or at least a fragile one that needs lots of attention and TLC to keep running. It's another to put my life at risk so Rick Wagoner or Bob "Maximum Carnage" Lutz, or anyone else could get a nice bonus paid for with my life.

jstump > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 11:24

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I don't know if it is necessarily people think the new line up of Chevy's is unsafe, but the fact that GM KNEW about a dangerous issue and failed to act on it. Sure the new cars are probably safe, but who is to say this doesn't happen again and 10 years from now we find out people died from a current car that company knew was faulty but didn't say anything about. This probably will not happen because GM is going to be paranoid from the horrible press it is currently getting and will act on it immediately, but I know that it is still in my mind that the company its self is not trustworthy. If they would have rectified the issue as they found out about it, this would be a non issue because recalls happen to all cars, but they didn't and they lost my trust that they would in the future.

mazdaspeed2 > MooseKnuckles 03/14/2014 at 11:26

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I feel like I am having a conversation with myself right now, haha. I don't think that I have done enough research on something until I know more than the average salesman. That being said, not every salesman is out to get you. I spent a short stint working at Best Buy, which is known for having terrible salesmen, but that was not the case at the store I worked at on the whole. There were some people that did not care about what the customer needed, but the manager always wanted everyone to try and save the customer money if they could, and not recommend the expensive things that they didn't need. I still don't trust many salesman, but they aren't always bad.

Stradale > mazdaspeed2 03/14/2014 at 11:26

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Yes things are changing but if someone buys a car from Manufacture A and it is shit then buy a vehicle from Manufacture B and it has been good then why would you go back to A? Why not stick with B until they do you bad? It just seems a little bit dumb when throwing down $30,000 to go back to a company that put out a poor car just because they might have changed something. If Manufacture B has been selling you good cars then why give A a chance again after they made your wallet bleed?

GreenWeenies > Stradale 03/14/2014 at 11:29

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No point in sparing the insults with idiots like you.

mazdaspeed2 > Chatham Harrison dba SPANFELLER DELENDUS EST 03/14/2014 at 11:29

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I am obviously a huge Mazda fan, but I tend to try and forget about the 626... I have never really been a fan of GM, but I am all for any manufacturer trying to improve their products and become more competitive. It will be unfortunate if this hurts them, but it was still their fault.

HumanPersonNetwork > DoctorNine 03/14/2014 at 11:30

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Have you looked at this guy's comment history? What a moron.

DMCVegas > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 11:31

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Yet.

And that right there is the big worry that until enough people die, we won't know that we're at risk.

Stradale > GreenWeenies 03/14/2014 at 11:33

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No point in even acknowledging you.

mazdaspeed2 > Stradale 03/14/2014 at 11:36

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Why make your wallet bleed if you don't have to? Perfect example here is Toyota from a couple years ago. Many people only buy Toyotas and they won't cross shop at all. If they had done some research, they would have discovered that the Camry was actually terrible and it was no longer the reliable car it once was. I'm not saying to not favor manufacturers you have had good experiences with, I'm saying it is not smart to do no research when spending $30,000. I am going from a Mazda to another Mazda this weekend, and I will probably buy another Mazda after this one, but I will do extensive research before I buy another car.

Dusty Ventures > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 11:36

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I just want to say how glad I am to have you as a part of Oppo. I greatly value your insightful articles on the sales/marketing side of the auto industry.

HumanPersonNetwork > Stradale 03/14/2014 at 11:38

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If the extent of your understanding of how machines work, is 'I won't buy again' after having something go wrong, then you aren't operating at a grown up level anyway. These are GM vehicles we are talking about. What exactly broke on these things, that is expensive enough to be called a money pit? It's not like a Benz or a BMW. Those things definitely can be. GM? Worst thing could be drive train, and even that is cheap, relatively.

mazdaspeed2 > DoctorNine 03/14/2014 at 11:39

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That is a great point.

DoctorNine > HumanPersonNetwork 03/14/2014 at 11:42

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Don't bother with him. He's irrational.

GreenWeenies > Stradale 03/14/2014 at 11:42

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And yet you did.

HumanPersonNetwork > mazdaspeed2 03/14/2014 at 11:50

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The key is to use the research to inform your decision. In actual fact, it is probably better to buy a known platform, where certain weakness are known, than it is to buy a new model, whose weaknesses are unknown. At least with the known platform, you can predict where the flaws will show, and either preemptively fix them, or prepare for that eventuality. With the new one, who knows where it will fail, and how bad it will be? No one wants to be the owner of a nearly new vehicle which gets a recall for a fatal defect.

Stradale > mazdaspeed2 03/14/2014 at 11:51

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Totally agree. We're going to look at another Nissan or Lexus here pretty soon as our Murano just 100k with zero problems. Comparing my old invoices on my 2 GM cars to this Nissan is crazy. But we do research before we buy but just tend to leave GM out of the equation.

DoctorNine > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 11:59

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What have sales of the Traverse been like? I see tons of them around here. You really think this will affect people buying a respected brand, even with this? I know quite a number of people who will buy a Chevy over any other brand when possible, even if they are technically inferior in a number of ways for the same price. That Chevy loyalty is a big thing to a lot of people.

Stradale > HumanPersonNetwork 03/14/2014 at 12:01

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For sure my GM cars were not on the level of a BMW or Benz. My Grand AM GT went through pads and rotors crazy fast, I had to have the intake gaskets replaced, head gasket replaced, ignition replaced (x2), radio lights burnt out, i'll have to pull out the file of invoices to get everything. All of that was before 150,000 miles. My Murano is at 98,000 miles and the only problem I've had was 1 TPS sensor went bad. The Murano has also only gone through 1 set of brake pads where at this time in the GT I was at like 4, I would have to get the file out to be sure.

Stradale > DoctorNine 03/14/2014 at 12:02

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Look its Bill Nye!

Tom McParland > DoctorNine 03/14/2014 at 12:05

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I don't know what the long term effects would be, that is why I initiated this conversation. I agree that brand loyalty especially in certain areas are a big factor.

mazdaspeed2 > HumanPersonNetwork 03/14/2014 at 12:07

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That is true, I would be far more hesitant to buy a new platform for that reason.

HumanPersonNetwork > Stradale 03/14/2014 at 12:11

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Plastic clad Grand Am's were notorious for a large number of lemons. Sounds like you got one. To a great degree, they were responsible for the poor opinion that people had of Pontiac before its demise.

But to try to draw any connection from that hunk of useless plastic to current designs really is stretching it. Essentially, none of the systems are the same.

It's like old Focus/new Focus on the Ford side. Way way different. Much better.

HumanPersonNetwork > mazdaspeed2 03/14/2014 at 12:13

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I only did it once, and got lucky. But I'm like you. Usually, I'll give it a year before buying a new platform, just in case.

DoctorNine > Stradale 03/14/2014 at 12:15

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Just got back from whipping creationists into shape. How you doing, Stradale ?

DrPain55 > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 12:19

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It's not only cars and automakers. The case could be said for about anything. Look at the tech/game industry and how people just blindly accept because everyone else has one or they are unwilling to move out of their comfort zone.

turbotoddo > DMCVegas 03/14/2014 at 12:19

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I see your points and feel similarly towards GM. I can't see this "change within GM" that other talk about. Gender aside, the new CEO is still part of the old guard. Which begs the question, who knew what, when and where. There was a great post at TTAC about the timeline of events that paints an alarming and immoral picture of management and accounting practices. Plausible denial be damned.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/02/gm-kne…

Stradale > HumanPersonNetwork 03/14/2014 at 12:19

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Of course none of those systems are the same. But that does not stop me from feeling that GM bent me over and never wanting to give them thousands of dollars again. So far Nissan has treated me good and has earn my business even if GM is making a superior vehicle now, Nissan earned my loyalty, until they sell me a junker.

DoctorNine > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 12:20

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I guess it will be a natural experiment to see whether the positive buying force of brand loyalty is greater in magnitude than the negative force of fear over recalls. Since people who buy on brand loyalty generally don't pay as close attention to details as people who tend to buy on spec/price, I'm betting that the brand loyalty force dominates. We'll see, won't we?

Thipps > DMCVegas 03/14/2014 at 12:24

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so your older blazer needed Ball joints and your upset someone had to use air tools to get them out? Hell I consider myself lucky if i didnt need to break out the torches and air hammers to get a ball joint out. I cant think of any manufactures they can help that problem.

mazdaspeed2 > HumanPersonNetwork 03/14/2014 at 12:24

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I am actually buying a 2014 Mazda 2 tomorrow, and I have spent the past couple months learning all about, including talking to owners to see what they like/dislike and what problems it has had. It also has been around for 4 years now so I feel I am making a solid decision. And yes, I know that it is really slow, but a couple bucks in suspension and tires and it is surprisingly capable in the turns haha.

Stradale > DoctorNine 03/14/2014 at 12:25

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Just on my lunch break. Got a meeting when I get from lunch about adding a new machine to the lineup.

DMCVegas > Thipps 03/14/2014 at 12:29

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No, I actually tolerated that. Did you actually ready my post, or did you just have a preconceived notion of what you wanted to hear and subconsciously misinterpreted my words on purpose?

HumanPersonNetwork > Stradale 03/14/2014 at 12:30

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Then assessing your decision making here, you've already decided that you really don't want a GM product. This new information isn't making you change your mind. So GM hasn't lost a sale by this news, in your case. I imagine for a large number of people this is the case, either for/against a GM purchase.

Personally, I am totally pro-GM, especially after having ridden in a new Chevy Corvette and Buick Enclave. Nothing like the 1990's. At all. Even if we find a defect, even if they knew about it, I'd be willing to chalk that up to poor risk management decisions at a time when the existence of the company was in doubt. The people who were responsible for those decisions need to be held to account. But I don't think many of them are still even around.

MN > mazdaspeed2 03/14/2014 at 12:30

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Completely with you there....my folks ended their relationship with Ford because their '69 LTD had paint issues! My gosh, what '69 Ford didn't! ;)

HumanPersonNetwork > mazdaspeed2 03/14/2014 at 12:31

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I like the way they look too. Nice choice!

DoctorNine > Stradale 03/14/2014 at 12:33

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What are you getting this time?

mazdaspeed2 > MN 03/14/2014 at 12:34

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Haha, exactly what I mean.

Zachary Vogel > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 12:35

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"The longer GM stalls and points fingers in other directions the longer this narrative will be in the minds of potential car buyers."

Nice pun!

mazdaspeed2 > HumanPersonNetwork 03/14/2014 at 12:37

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Thanks! I will be making a post in the next couple of days to welcome it into the oppo family, and I want to start blogging here more and I am thinking about doing a series with it like "Adventures With The 2." I also have a draft of a review of the car I am parting ways with, my Mazdaspeed Protege.

Tom McParland > Zachary Vogel 03/14/2014 at 12:39

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Glad you caught that :)

Tom McParland > Dusty Ventures 03/14/2014 at 12:40

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Thanks man, I greatly value your ability to RALLY ALL THE THINGS! :D

Dusty Ventures > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 12:48

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Stradale > DoctorNine 03/14/2014 at 12:49

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What ever the gf has made at home.

Kickplate > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 12:56

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Machines are all flawed. It's how the company responds to their flaws that makes all the difference.

While the Toyota analogy is not entirely correct, the point is valid. There were several potential causes for the very real and pronounced spike in Toyota's unintended acceleration problem. Some valid, some not, some clearly strawman theories floated by Toyota's PR group. They have not escaped this, and it's still not over. Not by a long shot. However what really hurt them, and what has the potential to hurt GM, is that they didn't handle the problem properly when it was first documented. If GM attempted to diminish the problem, deflect the problem onto suppliers or owners, hide it from the NHTSA or hide the problem internally, as Toyota did, and Ford did in the 80s, then they're screwed.

jpaulus > Tom McParland 03/14/2014 at 13:13

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Instead of paying their debts to the families who lost lived one's to the pieces of junk GM cars due GM's own negligence is disgusting and bad PR. Yeah, let's pay our execs more this year and let's not fire those who were involved with those affected vehicles. Bad move.